So Jim Rice finally got a call to the Hall, well deserved in my opinion. And we all knew that Rickey Henderson was going in on the first ballot—the greatest leadoff hitter I’ve ever seen, and perhaps to ever play the game.
I do have some questions for those 28 members of the Baseball Writers Association of America who didn’t vote for him, and even more questions for the two people who voted for Jay Bell.
See, this is what scares me about the voting process.
The other thing that scares me is what happens now that pure numbers don’t mean what they used to mean.
Because next year’s ballot is going to include Fred McGriff, who I’m not sure was ever one of the best players in the game, but who compiled big numbers (493 homers to go with 1,550 RBI and a .284 average in 19 years). He never hit more than 37 homers, but he drove in 100 or more eight times.
It also includes Roberto Alomar, who was probably on a sure-fire Hall path until his dreadful Mets days; yet he was one of the best offensive second basemen ever (.300, 210 homers, 1,140 RBI). It includes Barry Larkin, who was a great, great player at his position, shortstop, and hit .295 with some pop (198 homers, 960 RBI in 19 years).
And it includes Edgar Martinez, a great bat (.312, 309 HR, 1,261 RBI) who might be the best DH since Ron Blomberg first grabbed a bat and put away his glove for the Yankees.
So let’s start things off with this question: Do you think any or all of these guys are legit Hall of Famers? Are any of them good enough to go in on their first ballot? Will next year be a year in which nobody goes into the Hall (except perhaps somebody from the Veterans Committee)?
8:45 a.m., Sam says:

I have a few more seasons until I can vote for the HOF, but my first reaction is that if I were voting next year, I wouldn’t vote for any of those guys. Maybe – maybe – Alomar, because for a middle-infielder he was one fo the best during his generation. I’d have to look closer, but I think he’d be the only one. The numbers are one thing, but I am also a big proponent of the gut-test and, sorry, when I hear “Barry Larkin,” I don’t think “Hall of Famer” right off the bat. Of course, that also means I probably wouldn’t have voted for a number of guys that have already made it.
Who’s next? If not Alomar, the 2011 class isn’t all that impressive either. Jeff Bagwell? Maybe. Though I doubt it.
Thing is, if I were the only voter, the HOF would be a LOT smaller than it is. I hold it to a high standard, probably because it’s such a wonderful and hallowed place. To me, you need to be an all-time great – truly, all-time – and I’m not so sure there is an all-time great each year. In fact, there probably isn’t. So, by definition, that means there are going to be some years where the speeches are from writers or broadcasters or old-timers from the veterans’ committee. And that’s OK, too.
(FYI, I would have voted for Rickey, too. Rice is a tough one – it sort of comes down to how you feel about 11 seasons being enough of a career to put a guy in the HOF. Rice played 16 seasons, but only 11 of them were truly excellent. If 11 seasons is enough, then he probably deserves to go in. I’m not so sure that, when it came time to mark the ballot, I’d be OK with 11 seasons as a decider for an outfielder; longevity, to me, is important. But it’s a close call. I certainly can’t go crazy about people voting for him.)
CARP SAYS:
I was watching MLB Network—which so far I really like most of the time—last night. One of the panelists on its round-table talk show is Barry Larkin. Another is Harold Reynolds. Last night Reynolds was touting Larkin as a slam-dunk HOF.
Worse, two of the guests were voters Tom Verducci and Jon Heyman, two of the most respected baseball writers in the country. I know both of these guys and they are solid citizens and guardians of the game, not to mention A-plus reporters. Yet after they revealed which players were on their ballots, Larkin went into his thing about how players have a problem with writers voting because players compete against each other and know what it’s like “to be in the fox hole together” and when it comes to the Hall, it’s in the hands of people who “never played the game.”
Are you kidding me? The writers’ ballot is taken dead-seriously, and it has kept the Hall (mostly) free of borderline Famers. If it ever went to the players, the number of inductees would triple or quadruple, because players like Reynolds and Larkin think than every good player should go in. And because most ballplayers, as they have shown with their portion of the all-star voting process, don’t have a clue of which players are good, which are great, and what anybody else has really done over his career.
Then Reynolds complained that neither Verducci or Heyman voted for 10 players. The ballot has 10 spaces. You can vote for 10 or you can vote for nobody, but you’re only supposed to vote for those you think belong in the Hall of Fame (not Jay Bell). So Verducci’s ballot had only three names on it, Heyman went for seven, which is a lot. I voted for four—Henderson, Rice (the most feared hitter of his era, more so than Eddie Murray, for example), Don Mattingly (ditto), and Bert Blyleven. I might have been convinced to add three more—Tim Raines, Andre Dawson and Jack Morris—but wasn’t. There was no way I was going to come up with 10.
Next year, I guarantee I won’t have 10 on my ballot. But that’s because the writers take this voting privelege seriously, because we take the Hall seriously. It’s not a place for crony-ism, where good players are rewarded for having a lot of friends in the game. And if the Hall of Fame ever gets too crowded, as Yogi would say, nobody would go there anymore.
11:22 a.m., Sam says:

This is one of those debates that I go back and forth on – in a lot of ways, I think it’s the height of stupidity that writers vote for any awards that don’t involve writing. Why should writers vote? Why not GM’s? Front-office types? Scouts? People who, you know, are actually involved with the game as opposed to people whose job it is to report on/comment on it? Making the news isn’t what journalists are supposed to do, so why should we be involved in bestowing the greatest honor in the game?
Cronyism exists everywhere, including among writers. Put it this way: If Jason Giambi, who is universally hailed as a great guy for writers, had Barry Bonds’ numbers, I think there’s a much greater chance he’d go into the HOF quickly, whereas I think Bonds will end up being “penalized” a few ballots (which, on another tangent, is the dumbest thing voters do – either a guy gets in or doesn’t; waiting a few years is just being spiteful).
You said the writers ballot is taken “dead seriously” but is it? Last I checked, Jay Bell was on a few ballots. How serious is that? Same with Jesse Orosco? And Mo Vaughn????
CARP SAYS:
So will you refuse your ballot when you become eligible?
When I say “dead seriously” I’m thinking of the vast majority, people like Verducci and Heyman, Bill Madden, Jack O’Connell. I’m sure that you and our guy Peter Abraham will be exhaustive in your decision-making when you attain your voting rights. I like to think I take it dead seriously, and most do.
Now, there’s no accounting for taste. Obviously some people somehow think Mo Vaughn, Jay Bell and Jesse Orosco are Hall of Famers. How? I have no idea. Obviously, there are 28 people who think Rickey Henderson is not. How? Can’t possibly explain it—although there are some old-timers who for some crusty old reason don’t believe in first-ballot inductions for guys not named DiMaggio, Williams or Aaron.
Unfortunately, too, some writers hold off on guys they didn’t personally like, and I think that happened to Rice to some degree. The guy was an absolute jackass to the media, so it’s funny now seeing him being so humble on Red Sox telecasts, and this week as he learned of his election.
But the system works for the most part because you need 75 percent of the 540 or so votes cast to get in, and that keeps most of the questionable, borderline players out.
I agree with you that our job is to report the news, not to make it. But Cooperstown needed impartial, intelligent (well, some of us must be, right?) people to vote.
As for changing your mind on players, I agreed with you until now. Because this year I was convinced, mostly by reading something Madden wrote about Blyleven, who had not been on my ballot before. Sometimes, I guess, you gain perspective, or you find out that you made an error in keeping somebody off your ballot previously. I now think I was wrong all those years when I didn’t vote for Blyleven. Some people obviously changed their minds on Rice this year. And on Gossage the year before. That’s part of the process. It isn’t either he is or isn’t a Hall of Famer. It’s about getting it right.
I also agree with you that we’ve let in too many of those borderline players—Paul Molitor, Kirby Puckett, Don Sutton and dare I say this without the wrath of the many who disagree with me, Carlton Fisk. Now they’re talking about Bagwell? And Craig Biggio. Well, then Don Mattingly has to go in, right? And Roger Maris, one of the most Famous players ever. I’d like to see a Hall that’s a lot smaller. That includes just the greatest of the great, the true immortals of the sport.
Not Jay Bell.
12:35 a.m., Sam says:

Will I turn down my ballot? No, I wouldn’t, if this current system is still in place. If media are allowed to vote, I’ll vote – but I also wouldn’t be upset if the rules were changed because I think that an alternative system very likely could be better.
And what about the notion that people within in the game should vote? Why not have a similar system of longevity in place for experienced executives or scouts or personnel people getting to vote? Wouldn’t they have just as insightful an opinion as writers?
It’s possible (and likely) that there would still be voters doing stupid things – like never voting for anyone on the first ballot, which is just asinine. But I wonder if the perception would change more favorably since it wouldn’t be “dumb writers” – as some players would say – doing it anymore.
CARP SAYS:
I wouldn’t have a major problem if they gave the vote to another group, as long as that group isn’t just players or former players. I doubt very much they’d do as much research and put as much work into it as the writers do.
I also have a big problem with writers giving writers awards associated with the various Halls of Fame. I know writers who are “in” the baseball and hockey Halls of Fame, and we just DO NOT BELONG THERE. We have no right to put ourselves in there. None whatsoever. Broadcasters might be a different story, but it seems by and large they just go in for longevity and popularity more than for any real skill or talent. Fine. But writers? DO NOT BELONG IN THERE.
1:42 p.m., Sam says:

No way, Carpie – You’re a HOFer in my book!
CARP SAYS:
Tell you what: You get me elected and I’ll wear an “SB” hat on my plaque. Seriously, though, Cooperstown is for guys like Bob Wolff and Vin Scully, not for schlubs like us.
It’s an abuse of our power to get writers in there. Although I’d vote you in over Jay Bell.