Question #145: What do you think of Joe Torre’s book?
-
- January
- 26
OK, maybe saying he lost his trust for Brian Cashman was going a bit far. But otherwise, which of the excerpts of Joe Torre’s book that have become public so far do you think were so wrong?
That Alex Rodriguez is a diva? Duh. I don’t pretend to be so cool to know what a “Single White Female” complex is, but I know that there’s some truth to that “A-Fraud” stuff and that teammates shook their heads at the way A-Rod conducted and carried himself.
PS, that Johnny Damon was quoted as saying that A-Rod is a great teammate and that “we’ve got his back” … well, let’s remember that Damon said the exact same things about Manny Ramirez, and we all saw what kind of great teammate he was in Boston last year.
Let’s discuss this whole Torre thing, from his legacy to his firing, to this idea that he is a champion grudge-holder. He obviously had some things he wanted to say, since he doesn’t need the money. I also think he has darn good reason to be bitter toward the Yankees high command.
What do you think?
10:58 a.m., Sam says:
The best part about this whole story is the quotes that were attributed to an “A-Rod insider” in today’s New York Post. Check out the story, if you get a chance, especially the part where the “insider” says Torre’s comments about A-Rod were the last act of a “desperate” man. Is that a joke? What exactly is Torre desperate about? Last I checked, he’s got four more rings than A-Rod and has secured a spot in Yankees lore. At this point, what is A-Rod’s Yankees legacy? As one of the most controversial figures in franchise history?
I will admit that the history of the Torre Era is often a little over-the-top positive. As someone who covered Torre and got to know him somewhat, I’m certainly as guilty as anyone of that. But even with the way things went his last few years, he’s got tons of money, near-universal adulation, four rings, a great legacy, a new job in California and a winter home in Hawaii. If that’s desperate, sign me up for some desperation.
I don’t have a problem with Torre speaking his mind. It’s hardly surprising that he would say some things now that he might not have said when he was managing the Yankees, if only because saying them then would have made his job even more difficult. I can’t get mad at someone for different perspective in a different situation. And, as always, it’s probably worth waiting to actually, you know, see the book, before getting too worked up.
All the same, the notion that Torre is “desperate” for anything is among the more laughable aspects of this entire thing.
CARP SAYS:
Me too. I’ll take some of that desperate.
The thing about the “over-the-top” positive spin on Torre’s 12 seasons is that most of it is greatly deserved. Just ask the players who matter what they think of St. Joe. Ask Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Williams, Brosius, O’Neill, Girardi, Martinez, Knoblauch, Cone, Pettitte, Clemens (the dirty rat), even the short-timers like Gooden, Strawberry, Raines, Boggs. I’ll bet you their responses would all be over the top.
I just mention that because I don’t agree at all with those who say this is a case of a media-driven personality having been created. Even latter guys like Giambi and Mussina and Damon gushed over Torre.
Is it unfair that he went after A-Rod a bit? Perhaps. Rodriguez was singled out, but, hey, that’s what such a gigantic personality—one who so often is on the gossip pages and earning notoriety for what he does off the field—demands. And any book that ignored the whole A-Rod dynamic, or glossed over it as if it wasn’t a big deal, well, that would be fraudulent, too.
11:58 a.m., Sam says:
True enough, Carp. Ignoring the A-Rod thing would make the book woefully lacking in credibility. But do you think there’s anything wrong with Torre writing this book at all? Mike Vacarro argues in today’s Post that writing this book has sullied Torre’s reputation – that he is a hypocrite for airing clubhouse stories after championing the sanctity of the clubhouse during his 12 years.
You agree or disagree?
CARP SAYS:
Agree, to a point. Maybe when you are all finished in the game, then it’s an OK time to start telling clubhouse tales.
The thing is, this is rampant in sports nowadays. Players and coaches and managers and all sorts are paid to do radio shows, TV shows, and to write books, or blog. And the thing I don’t understand about it is: why?
I mean, if you’re making—and this is a pedestrian salary in today’s sports—say, $6 million a year, why do you have a radio show that pays you five figures? Why, if you’ve made, oh, $55 million in your career, do you need the extra mill for a book deal? That’s the part I don’t get. If you or I, Sam, signed a book deal for five five figures, we’d be doing cartwheels. Or at least I would be. Or at least I’d attempt one.
But for Joe Torre or Phil Jackson, or for any of today’s top athletes to need to supplement their salaries by going beyond the lines of clubhouse secrecy to write a book, well, that to me is mind-boggling.
It’s also another thing if they want or need to get something off their chest. Or in some cases (Jose Canseco) if they’ve blown through their money somehow.
For an active player/coach/manager/GM to go out and tell stories just to pad the old bank account, that to me is an unnecessary distraction brought on by one’s self.
Hypocritical? Maybe. I have all the respect in the world for Vaccaro, and I don’t disagree with him on this.
UPDATE: I think this is interesting. It’s a brief interview on SI.com with Sports Illustrated’s Tom Verducci, who was the author of the Torre book.
I think you should quit whoring your website over on Pete’s blog, thats what I think.
I think Torre is a huge, ego-driven fraud whose entire motive for writing this book is vengeance. I think he grew to be a lengend, largely helped by a fawning press, and I think he played the press – and the rest of us – like violins.
Torre’s penchant for grudge-holding isn’t really a secret. Ask Jeff Nelson what he received as a reward for voicing his opinion to the press. (I have always personally marked that as the watershed moment for the Yankees descent from the throne, since it took away a vital piece of the wildly-successful bullpen.)
I never thought Torre was treated badly by the organization during the end-game. Please realize there are two distinct schools of thought on that with total polarization of opinion. The people who believe the Yankee offer was a total sham, designed to get rid of Torre, are as firm in their belief as are the people who feel the organization wanted him back but felt they needed to lower the salary since he had failed to make the Yankee grade for 7 straight years. Please don’t tell me I am an idiot for joining the ranks of the latter, just as I don’t tell anyone they are idiots for believing the former! I have always been of the school of thought that intelligent, well-intended people can disagree on something and see it differently from each other and still be respected for their beliefs and the way they see things. As we all know, without glossies, so to speak, it’s all conjecture anyway.
I am a lohud-blog pariah because I don’t see eye-to-eye with the blog master on some important things, one of them being whether or not Joe Torre should be afforded god status. I have been pilloried and called a nitwit, delusional, and lots of other not-so-kind things. (I will say that sometimes I am part of a group being pilloried; other times I am pilloried individually.
) And it’s okay because I have big shoulders and strong principles.
I would only ask that if you don’t agree with my take – and I will never say my take is etched in stone, just that it is something in which I strongly believe – please only attack the message.
Thanks.
Normally these tell all books come out after the guy telling all has retired, so I find it a bit odd for it to be out with him still being a manager for a MLB team. That said, it doesn’t change my stance on Joe. I thank him and love him for all that he did for the Yankees, but it really was time for him to move on. Both him and the Yankees needed a new song and dance.
I don’t think this will really change anything either. Torre will still eventually have his number retired and will eventually have his star put (back) in the Yankee universe. And rightfully so.
I also think after reading through 12 straight hours of Trisha’s ramblings yesterday that she needs a life. Or maybe a hobby…
Seriously girl, go bake some muffins, try and snag a man and pump out some kids.
I don’t know who needs more of a life, the person that types ramblings for 12 hours, or one that reads such ramblings. C’mon let’s keep it clean here, eh?
Hank Steinbrenner last summer pretty much admitted that the Yankees had decided to get rid of Torre before the “sham” offer. That they intentionally made Torre an offer he would refuse so that they didn’t have to fire him.
Rick, I’d like to read about that. Do you have any articles? I had not heard that.
Gus G. – thanks.
Whether or not he Dodger players like Alex, won’t they look down on Torre for airing clubhouse happenings in a book? They aren’t going to trust him. Heck I wouldn’t.
I enjoyed the 4 titles he brought to the Yankees, but I don’t think he should ever think that he will get his number retired. He can forget that now.
Jennifer, I was just about to say the same thing. How are the Dodger players going to look at him now if they don’t know if he’s eventually going to write a book entitled “The Dodger Years.” His own players are going to act very guarded around him.
But I do disagree with the fact about his number. Eventually I think it still will get retired.
Honestly, I don’t believe Torre needed to air out his dirty laundry the way he did. I think there are better ways to “vent” than to publish it. As for why he did it, there’s only 2 reasons that come to mind, money and bitterness. Neither of those two warrant his laundry to come out into the open like this. In my mind, it does tarnish his image some and Vaccaro does make some valid points? How can you preach one thing when you wear the stripes but then violate all of that once you’re out of them? I don’t believe the Dodgers ever held Torre on a pedastal so I don’t seem him falling much either. If anything, players are a me first group anyway so if anything, they probably wish they could get that kind of advance on a book when their career is dust more than Torre losing any kind of respect in the clubhouse. These players aren’t a bunch of ol’ school fanboys playing for the love of the game… they’re playing for that 7 or 8 figure paycheck – period. I can’t see what positives there are to Torre doing this… just venting and bitterness. Does the FO deserve it? Probably, but when you’re throwing mud at other people, you’ve got to get into that mud puddle first. And Torre is muddy from jersey to jockstrap. If anything, I am disappointed in him. But like with all things, this will pass. Do I think he’ll get his place in Yankee lore? Truthfully? Not as long as the Steins are in control IMO. Only if/when Torre is enshrined by the rest of baseball will the Steins be forced to recognize his contributions. I seriously doubt they’ll campaign on his behalf to do it tho. When Torre left town, he left no bridge unburned. Too bad he didn’t take the high road… I hear there are no bridges on that path.
Shamus, your posts deserve no place on this or any other blog. Do everyone here a favor and take it elsewhere.
The more I hear about this book, the more I hear that it’s pretty mild in terms of airing dirty laundry. It’s nearly 500 pages, and these are the inflammatory comments? I think there will be a context to the A-Fraud comment when the book is released, that it was a case of Torre recalling the kinds of things that he heard being said about A-Rod. And I hear that most, if not all, of Torre’s take from the book will go to his charity.
So maybe we should all wait before we judge a book by two or three comments.
But, yes, if I were a Dodger I’d now feel I have to be more careful around the skipper, and that’s not a good thing.
Sorry, I don’t have to wait when it is apparent that someone is working out a vendetta. I’ve heard enough. Big deal the money will go to charity. It’s blood money. He trashed players and he disclosed things that players SUPPOSEDLY said about other players. Maybe you are in the business of calling things “just a little wrong.” To me, wrong is wrong. I don’t make excuses for the inexcusable.
Here’s a little more having to do with Saint Joe and how he singlehandedly ruined the Yankees. (Who knew it at the time though.)
I posted this in response to another post on the lohud blog. It just gives more insight into the man who wrote the book – Joe Torre.
__
“In the first year with the up and coming Joe, one of the best bullpens we have seen as Yankees fans…”
And back to something I have contended for the past 8 years!!!!!
Joe Torre’s vendetta against Jeff Nelson started the demise of the current great Yankee era. Let’s look at the facts. Nelson complained to the press about Torre leaving him off the All Star Team. That was in 2000, the last year the Yankees won the World Series. Nellie had a 2.45 ERA that year. Cashman ended up offering him an embarassment of a contract (I believe it was 3 mil) and Nelson left and went to Seattle. Joe’s well known grudge against players who talked to the press and tarnished the Saint Joe image in the process was played out against one of the Yankees greatest relief pitchers. It made me sick to my stomach at the time because the key to the Yankees’success had been its rotation and its OUTSTANDING bullpen. That was when we had the Nellie/Stanton tandem.
The bullpen was never the same, and the Yankees never won again.
‘’That’s your main objective—you have to win,’’ said Jeff Nelson, the reliever who has complained mildly about Torre’s decision to leave him off the All-Star team. ‘’No matter how you go about doing it, no matter if you step on feelings or step on guys, you’re the manager in a very tough market and for a team that has a reputation for winning, and you’ve got to do what it takes to win.”
Unless you cross the manager. Then winning becomes entirely secondary to him finding a way to get rid of you.
“Last year, Yankees middle reliever Jeff Nelson thought he deserved to be selected, and when Torre did not pick him, Nelson criticized Torre. Now Nelson is with the Mariners, in Seattle, where the All-Star Game will be played. How would Nelson feel if Stanton was picked to pitch in Seattle? ‘’I imagine he wouldn’t be real happy,’’ Stanton said, chuckling.”
Torre singlehandedly insured that the Yankees wouldn’t win any further World Series by making sure Nellie got canned. This is the guy whose number should be retired.
Yeh.
I have no problem with Torre and Verducci selling books. We all know that A-Rod cares about himself, and how he is perceived, not the team he plays for. And since the Boss, hasn’t really been the Boss for some years now, it’s hard to run the greatest baseball franchise in history with so many so-called chiefs running around.
Torre inherited a great team (system) in 96’, built by the shrewdness of Gene Michael & Buck Showalter, and molded by players like Donnie Baseball.
You could argue that Torre should have been relieved from his duties long before 2007. He ruined arms in his bullpen, but he can’t share the total blame for the team’s shortcomings, afterall, he didn’t sign the guys he penciled into the lineup everyday.
From 2003 on, the Yankees weren’t a team, rather they were a collection of stars, that couldn’t consistently do the fundamentals and play the team game when it mattered most. Jeter knew this, and he reminded sports writers everytime they compared each new Yankee team, to 96-2000 teams.
Torre’s not the first person to clean out the closet after leaving an organization, and he certainly won’t be the last.