Question #104: Is Mussina a Famer?
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- November
- 20
Sam, I feel as if we’ve had this discussion before, and that we disagreed. Is Mike Mussina a Hall of Famer?
I might change my mind in the five years between Mussina’s retirement announcement and when I receive the official ballot with his name on it. I didn’t think Mussina was a Hall of Famer before he won 20 games for the first time this year, and at the moment I’m leaning toward sticking with that.
The reason is simple. I think there needs to be a line drawn between being a baseball immortal and being really, really good. Mussina was really, really good for a long, long time. I don’t think he was ever the best pitcher in his league or in baseball (he never won the Cy Young). I don’t think the fact that he never won a championship should go against him, but if he’d won one or two, that would certainly add luster to his resume.
I just think we’ve let too many really, really good players into Cooperstown already. Paul Molitor always comes to mind. People are talking about Craig Biggio now. These guys were never, ever, better than players like Jim Rice and Don Mattingly, who remain out. Or even Gary Sheffield, who even with his admission of, ahem, flaxseed oil use, is more deserving.
Likewise, Mussina is in the Bert Blyleven category. Don Sutton got in with a similar resume to Mussina’s, and I don’t think he should be in, either. I think Jack Morris, still on the sidelines, was better than all three of those guys, but didn’t compile the longevity numbers.
Fortunately, I don’t have to make that decision on Mussina today.
(WHO DO YOU LIKE?, Thursday edition: STEELERS (-11) over Bengals).
11:30 a.m., Thursday, Sam says:
In fact, we have had this discussion back in the middle of the baseball season. It was Question #5. And weren’t those the days?
Anyway, we sort of disagreed then and we sort of disagree now. I think Mussina is the very definition of a borderline HOFer. He was an excellent pitcher. That is indisputable. And he did it for a very long time in an era when players’ careers are getting ever-shorter. That is certainly in his favor.
I am still a few years away from voting for the HOF, so I can’t say for sure how I’ll approach the process, but I’d like to think that I’ll be VERY discriminating. I believe the HOF is for no-doubters and Mussina isn’t necessarily in that category. That said, I do think he’s worthy (if that makes any sense at all), so I wouldn’t be outraged if he did make it. Everyone has a different standard for what it takes to make the HOF, and Mussina is right on the outside of mine; it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he was right on the inside of many others’.
Former Yankees bullpen catcher Mike Borzello is one of Mussina’s closest friends and he used to call Mussina “Mr. Almost” – almost threw a perfect game, almost won a championship and – until this past season – almost won 20. Now that he seems to be retired, it’s interesting to see if Mussina is almost a HOFer or if he actually gets all the way there.
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I’m hoping that the Steelers are a little tired coming off a short week. I’ll take the Bengals and the 11 points.
I think it’s kind of ironic that Carp would cite Moose’s lack of a Cy Young award for not making the HOF when just a few posts ago, we were debating on the very merits of winning one (Johan vs Lincecum) and the debatable standards that come with it – i.e., wins. I think Borzello is pretty accurate in his assessment of Mussina… Mr. Almost indeed. One strike from a perfect game. One inning from a WS title. 270 wins. He is a very, very good pitcher and I think he has the intangibles, in my mind, that put him over the hump. He’s a great teammate. Plays the game with class. Accomplished much of his achievements during the Bond/Giambi/Sheffield steriod/flaxseed oil/greenie era – which alone should make the MLB award him some sort of “steroid era bonus differential” when looking at his statistics – like 50+ more wins, -.5 on his era, etc. AND the fact that he did manage to win 20 games not at 25 and at the top of his game, but at the age of 39 with a not so good Yankees offensive team should also speak to his abilites. Maybe I’m partial, but IMO, Moose is a fringe HOF but I believe the fact that he was so good for so long (consistency) and managed to be so effective even when he was in his “decline” years as well as his intangibles puts him over that hump.
I’m not sure what your standards for being a HOF are Carp and Sam, but I seriously doubt you’re going to see any more 300 game winner/2500 strikeouts, or .400 batting average/500 HR players anymore and the standards IMO need to be adjusted for the current game, not the one played 50 years ago when players were less atheletic and less competitive (no african-americans for a while, etc). Today, the batters are faster, stronger, and the strike zone is smaller, the fields tend to favor the hitter, players are coached for baseball at a much younger age, etc… But when I think about these things, trying to squeeze Moose’s accomplishments against those players of 50 years ago doesn’t seem fair or justified and it only enhances what he has accomplished in this era.
BTW, had this been the 2007 Yankees that score 968 runs, Moose’d have probably won 23-25 games.
As a die hard yankee fan it’s hard for me to not argue for Moose to be in the HOF. Since the middle of the season when people started to speculate whether or not he would come back, the broadcasters and writers started to focus on his win/loss record more and more. We have repeatedly been reminded that he is 100+ (not sure exactly how much, i dont have the stats in front of me) games over 500. Only 18 others have accomplished this. Of those 18, 12 are in the HOF, 5 are still active/not eligible yet (pedro, roger, randy, maddux, and one more) and the one remainder only pitched in about 8 or 9 seasons. I think this stat is legitimate when making a case for Moose. His remarkable consistancy and reliability will put him in the elite class of his generation. Although he is Mr. Almost, i feel that The Hall is starting to let more and more players who are on the cusp of greatness in, and i feel like that name (almost great) will finally work to Moose’s advantage. He was also a 5 time all star and an 8 time gold glover who is one of only 3 pitchers (i think) to have less than 2BB/9IP and throw more than about 3,000 innings. He was a control artist and a consumate professional. I think The Hall needs more of these players and less of the flashy ego-maniacs whose names stand out in capital letters on ballots.
Oh, and my Thursday pick is the Steelers (-11)...